Friday, July 27, 2007

A simple truth about the Palestinian citizens of Israel




“We, the Palestinian Arabs who live in Israel, natives of this land and citizens of this country… found ourselves within the borders of the Jewish state, detached from the rest of our Palestinian nation and the Arab world, were coerced to carry an Israeli citizenship and turned into a minority within our historic homeland”

This is the introduction to ‘The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel’ – a recently published document written by the National Committee of Heads of Arab Councils, a sister-body of the Supreme Monitoring Council of Israel’s Arabs – their highest governing body. The underlying message of this document is that they will never accept the existence of a Jewish state:  

“The definition of the state as a Jewish state and the use of democracy in service of its Jewishness turns us away and places us in conflict with the nature and essence of the country we live in”.

I am, to some extent, relieved that the truth is finally out there, straight from the horse’s mouth, and this document is not the sole example. In the last couple of months, Adalah, the Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, petitioned the Supreme Court to revoke the Law of Return; Sheikh Ra’aed Salah, the head of the Northern Muslim Faction, has openly denounced Israel’s right to exist; and head of Shin Bet has reported of an increase in Arab Israeli citizens' identification with terror organizations, Iran, Hizbullah, Hamas and other bodies that do not recognize Israel’s right to exist. A recent poll suggests that 76% of Arab Israeli citizens regard the definition of Israel as a Zionist state as racist.

“There are two fundamental facts that should be taken into account when developing the legal status of the Palestinian-Arabs in Israel:

  1. The Palestinian-Arabs being the original owners of the land…
  2. Their being a living and inseparable part of the Arab-Palestinian nation”.
Allowing myself to skip the historical inaccuracy of point number one, I find point number two intriguing. This is one of the only points upon which I can see eye to eye with the authors of this document. I have claimed this for years, and made it a central component of Israel Beitenu’s platform. Israel must insist that a final agreement with the Palestinians should ensure that the vast majority of those who call themselves “Arab-Palestinians in Israel” find themselves excluded from the State of Israel and reunited with their nation. 

These developments warrant a paradigm shift in the mainstream Israeli approach on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The question we have to be asking ourselves is not how do we envision the future Palestinian state, rather how we envision the future of the Jewish State. While it has become universally acceptable to speak of a Palestinian nation-state, the right of Jewish self-determination in the land of Israel still has to be fought for. We have to start acting like a defensive democracy, ensuring that the liberties and freedoms that democracy allows its citizens aren’t being used to bring to its downfall.


COMMENTS
49.  Why doesn't your party and Benjamin Netanyahu's party join together?

Wouldn't such an alliance make sense, and be good for Israel?


Mark Kerlen, Yellowknife, Canada, Mar 22 5:03AM
48.  Apartheid, this depends on when you choose to begin your historical perspective, and both sides can go on about what "belongs" to them - its a never-ending debate that is pointless. My point is if you care about peace, you need to support what will bring about sustainable peace.
Mat, Haifa, Mar 15 6:03PM
47.  46 Mat, Israel put the settlers in the West Bank without taking in any Palestinians in exchange. Israel can remove the settlers without expelling any Israeli Arabs in exchange.
Apartheid, Boston, Mar 15 2:03PM
46.  He has everything 100% right if he is serious. He is not talking about herding up all the Moslem Arabs or the christian arabs and drop kicking them to Gaza. No if the truth is most Israeli arabs care not for Israeli citizenship perhaps they should leave but in all political practicle reality would they? If forced out Israel is seen as a police state. That is not the Israeli way like most peace promoters Israelis want love their neigbors despite their potentially returned hatred. If it was done by laws e.g outlaw organizations and any citizen Jewish, Moslem, Christian or Druze who commits treason and is convicted of that treason could be expelled e.g like the nuke guy. Most police states do not let people out. There are few that expell citizens. But treason is a good reason to expell anyone. If Israel keeps those rules non judgemental religiously and only in terms of violent and political crimes then morally Israel would be so justified in expelling Israeli Arabs who make and supply bombs or aid violent operations knowingly. This becomes critical to such a strategy. So long as the laws are well defined and apply to all citizens equally.
For example if Israel implemented a law like China of two kids per family it would apply to everyone including Israeli Arabs. Most Israelis should probably operate the other way by maxing out on large families. Probably the best thing to happen to Israel would be much larger families out do the Mohamads and keep both political and economic control. Failure to do this will make huge problems. The forced control over the population would cause its own problems clearly where as perfect competition of population growth would be ideal if practical. E.g Will the government provide free daycare and tax incentives to make this happen? There is the possibility of cloning but that has its own political and religous fallout. Still it could keep Jews in the majority and why not clone back at least 6 million and their unrealized decendents. Isn't it sad that the problems facing Israel today are based on demographics. That is so ironic. So sad! Israel wanted the Arabs living among them to be friends. Many Israelis will swear by their Arab neighbors. They love them as dear friends so that is the Israeli feeling I have seen. What is the reality? Are many of these dear friends plotting their government's destruction? would the Arab friend stab the Israeli friend who is there to pick up their friend's son for a socer game? Paranoia may destroy ya comes to mind. Trust must be earned and so far ideology is in play. Rather than live in peace there is a worldwide dynamic of groups. America has survived so far but many in the USA have a similar fear but Catlic Hispanics and christian blacks do not tell us how to
act and behave. You must wear a hat and you must never do mixed swimming. This is the fundamentalist way. Inflicting such rules on others who do not believe in the exact same way is where the fear of domination come from.
In the USA/Canada is everyone free to practice their religions so long as no human or animal sacrifice is necessary.
Point taken is fear comes from loss of rights and it is ultimately a world wide problem. I fear Islam because it takes over lands quickly. Hebrews were supposed to multiply like the stars in the sky. It has not happened, but so long as we are smart enough to not follow selfish fundamentalist ways the world should respect us. Moslems practice fundamentalist ways they dominate. Jews should never dominate that way the world should love the Jews for our sense of respect even if the Christian beleives in bacon and eggs for breakfast thats their business not ours.

Aryeah, Avigdor Lieberman - Is this guy serious?, Mar 15 6:03AM
45.  Separation from the Palestinians is the best thing for Israel, Arabs, and people all over the world because it will create local, regional and then, in turn, global stability. However, the mainstream vision for separation is incomplete and will not lead to long term stability because while it does (correctly) separate Jews from Palestine by removing settlements, it does not address removing 1 million Arabs who currently live inside the green line.

So it's a one-way separation that doesn't solve the problem. Let's imagine a peace agreement is reached as it is currently envisioned, and inside the green line are 1 million Arabs (20% of total) who are currently growing demographically at a much higher rate than Jews. It is only natural, then, that tension will remain (and likely increase) even after a peace is reached, and possibly force Israel to compromise its democratic principles to retain its Jewish identity. This will continue to inflame Arabs.

In this likely scenario, the conflict will not end - it will be much more complicated. The problem has been that aside from Lieberman, no one is willing to speak openly about this reality - not Netanyahu, not Olmert, not even Sharon when he was PM. I suspect this is because it is incredibly sensitive to discuss it. Population exchanges for the sake of peace have historically worked (india/Pakistan, Greece/Turkey) but the price paid is disproportionately heavy on the dispossesed. Clearly, Jews moving back inside the green line, and Arabs moving the Palestine should be substantially compensated by both governments and perhaps by the international community if it is truly interested in peace, but if a viable peace is to be reached, Israeli leaders need to start addressing the issue.

Israelis are desperate because they don't see a solution and because their leaders cannot articulate a real strategy to deal with the problems. But a solution does exist, we just need the courage to speak openly.

Mat, Haifa, Mar 14 8:03PM
44.  Separation from the Palestinians is the best thing for Israel, Arabs, and people all over the world because it will create local, regional and then, in turn, global stability. However, the mainstream vision for separation is incomplete and will not lead to long term stability because while it does (correctly) separate Jews from Palestine by removing settlements, it does not address removing 1 million Arabs who currently live inside the green line.

So it's a one-way separation that doesn't solve the problem. Let's imagine a peace agreement is reached as it is currently envisioned, and inside the green line are 1 million Arabs (20% of total) who are currently growing demographically at a much higher rate than Jews. It is only natural, then, that tension will remain (and likely increase) even after a peace is reached, and possibly force Israel to compromise its democratic principles to retain its Jewish identity. This will continue to inflame Arabs.

In this likely scenario, the conflict will not end - it will be much more complicated. The problem has been that aside from Lieberman, no one is willing to speak openly about this reality - not Netanyahu, not Olmert, not even Sharon when he was PM. I suspect this is because it is incredibly sensitive to discuss it. Population exchanges for the sake of peace have historically worked (india/Pakistan, Greece/Turkey) but the price paid is disproportionately heavy on the dispossesed. Clearly, Jews moving back inside the green line, and Arabs moving the Palestine should be substantially compensated by both governments and perhaps by the international community if it is truly interested in peace, but if a viable peace is to be reached, Israeli leaders need to start addressing the issue.

Israelis are desperate because they don't see a solution and because their leaders cannot articulate a real strategy to deal with the problems. But a solution does exist, we just need the courage to speak openly.

Mat, Haifa, Mar 14 6:03PM
43.  It is incredible that an old Zionist slogan like "A land without people for a people without land" still has a hold on the simple minded. The population of what became Palestine was in 1881 - 400,000 Muslim "Arabs", 42,000 Christian "Arabs" and less than 20,000 Jews. Mark Twain's comments in the Innocents Abroad are not to be taken seriously. It is a work of satire. There are numerous books by travelers and missionaries in the 19th century describing the culture of the Muslim population in the Holy Land: WM Thompson, GA Smith, HB Tristram etc.
Apartheid, Boston, Mar 14 3:03PM
42.  There are misconceptions about the Arab conquest here. The Arab armies defeated the Byzantines, forced the Patriach of Jerusalem to surrender and then moved on to Egypt. They merely set up an administration and garrisoned the area. The population was left alone to pay taxes. The people were not replaced by Arab invaders who were few in number. They gradually adopted the language and religion of the new ruling class.
Apartheid, Boston, Mar 14 2:03PM
41.  During the periods when the Jews dominated the region there were always other people there. The Philistines were only conquered by the Babylonians and were around long enough to adopt Greek culture. The Babylonians and Assyrians settled numerous peoples in the area like the Samaritans. There was a large immigration of Greeks in Hellinistic times. There were 30 Greek cities either newly founded or non-jewish cities that adopted Greek customs. When the Jews were driven out obviously other people moved into the areas where they lived.
Apartheid, Boston, Mar 14 2:03PM
40.  1917 B.C.E. Abraham age 75 receives mandate from God in which Canaan will be the future home of the Israelites.
1917 A.D. Balfour Declaration states Jordan will be home of the Arab people and the land west of the Jordan will be homeland for the Jews. Don't people study the mandate given by God in 1917 B.C.E. and the declaration which was not enforced by the British in 1917 A.D.? More directly the fullfilled prophecy of Ezekiel 36:24 clearly states Jews would return home from many nations to their own land. The 2,500 year old prophecy has happened. Only the anti-Semites who don't believe in God challenge Israel's existence.

Lujack-Skylark, USA, Mar 14 4:03AM
39.  They are Arabic speaking Muslims (Semites), not related to the ancient Palestians who were not Semitic. Most of them are descendants primarily of the Moslem conquerors who arrived here 800 years ago, although some of their ancestors may also be some of the conquered crusaders that came from Europe. Although most of the Arabs here have ancestry going back hundreds of years here, their connection with the land is primarily out of coincidence and convenience unlike the Jews whose 3000 year connection is based on fundamental religious precepts that require our living here so serve G-d. Jews have sacrificed much to return to their ancient homeland and are not here out of coincidence or convenience.
Yonason Herschlag, Betar, Israel, Mar 14 12:03AM
38.  This is nonsense. Why should Israel care what the Arabs within Israel consider themselves? They are, in effect, Israeli's of Arab descent, whether that be through the original inhabitants of Palestine, converts to Islam, migrants after 48, etc. They are subject to Israeli laws, just as the Arabs most obey US (and California) laws, that is, those Arabic
speaking peoples who reside here. There are no exceptions. In the US, there is a movement to only allow English to be spoken. That is somewhat far-fetched, but gets to the point. We are turning into a Hispanic state (Calif). Europe is becoming Islamic.
The US has Black Muslims. Israel needs to make these people understand that they have a choice: either be Israelis, or relocate (to other countries, Gaza or the West Bank). Israel needs a constitution, to define itself legally and put this matter to rest once and for all.

Dave Levy, Burbank. California, Mar 13 11:03PM
37.  To #1> Your approach is racist (biological) for sure. But how do you know the % they are descendants from Arab immigrants
in 642 CE or 1920 CE? Israeli Jews
for sure are more of the original inhabitants
CULTURALLY (they pray to Jerusalem,
the Palestinians pray to Mecca).

Zoli, Budapest, Mar 13 11:03PM
36.  I've read the Arab document. It appears to me that they want to have a separate parliament of "arabs only", they want full sovereign authority over the land. The Jewish Israel is to be limited to the land upon which Jews have their homes. Arab sovereign power will start major cultural, social, military projects, Arabs having rights in Isael economic assets, with Jews paying the bills.
Iche Behr, Los Angeles, USA, Mar 13 10:03PM
35.  To Apartheid,

While your comment is intriguing it is also totally false. The Arabic speaking Palestinians are in fact(a) Arabs (b) not descendants of any residents in the area when the Jews were driven out (c) were certainly not Christian and (d) most certainly can live with other Arabs. The problem? No one wants them, including their fellow Arab co-religionists, and the only ones willing to live side-by-side with them are current and future victims of their hatred. If truth be told, the only practicing Apartheid supporters in this entire region are the Arab Moslems. By law and by behavior.

Saba Pete, Petach Tikvah, Israel, Mar 13 10:03PM
34.  This second post is a question for Mr. Liberman (I assume he reads his own blog): IF you really mean what you say: WHY DID YOUR PARTY BOYCOT AND THEREBY STOP THE VOTE OF LIKUD MK ERDAN'S BILL TO OUTLAW THE ISLAMIC MOVEMENT?!!!! (sources suggest the answer to that question is that you were afraid of losing your minesterial posts, and I'm inclined to believe them)
Daniel , Formerly Israel, Mar 13 10:03PM
33.  So Mr. Apartheid,
The Cananeans who were there "before, during and after" the first and second temples resisted Judaism for one thousand years without being absorbed but became Christians immediately after
Jesus, otherwise Yeshua Benyasef. May I enlighten you that the proto Christians were Jews themselves, resided in Jerusalem where even Paul, otherwise Shaul, sought advice. Nonetheless it is not a matter of being generic Arab or not, but a matter of loyalty towards the State where they make a living, and a good one too.An Islamic proverb says that you cannot pray at two different mosques at the same time; consequently they will have to choose one State or the other! Practically speaking they have been Arabs for a thousand years; why shouldn´t they live with their brethren some thirty kilometers away ???

Isaac Haskiya, Roskilde - Denmark, Mar 13 10:03PM
32.  Very good point of view of the writter. Palestine never was a sorveign and independt arab country. Apartheid speaked hi bla bla bla.

These entire region didnt know what was sovergeinty and independence till jews put it question long before 1945, with zionist moviment. Good to tell allways were jews had been killed there and arabs pressured britons in the shame white book and the mufti of jerusalem begging to jewish blood.

This issue higlighted is very important, as non-jewish or other didnt want to live in a democratic jewish country. If they dont accept this reality of almost 60 years I think is better to live with others, so go!If they want to stay, they know israel born to be a jewish state,and they must live accordnly. I was very happy seeing an arab minister in israel and i will still see another arabs and christians or any feith been elected in israel.In Israel nobody is forced to be jew, or has a special bus place, bathrooms etc. But by the pools they need to prove their loyalty.

israel is not apartheid, somewhere, Mar 13 10:03PM
31.  To Apartheid from Boston; no, They are not decendents of the people who lived in ancient Judea, because before the Romans came only Jews lived there: I know this because ancient Jews were very xenophobic and would not allow any non-JEws to reside in Judea. Now they may be the decendants of the Ishmaelites, though I doubt it, but if that is true than their claim (which first of all is no stronger than ours and second of all should be trumped by ours since they have 22 other states and we have 0) goes back long before the first temple to the very first years of the Jews in Canan, and in that case Jews have a legitimate clame to central Iraq, since that is where Abraham came from originally (Hebrew is a corruption of Ephrey - Of the Euphrates)
Daniel , Formerly Israel, Mar 13 10:03PM
30.  As usual Avigdor Liberman seems to be the only polititian who has creative ideas.
Politicaly correct politians who fear there own hairs on their backs standing up can't be relied on to bring it all together. Avigdor can and if given the chance will. Dov

Dov Davitz, Atlanta Georgia, USA, Mar 13 10:03PM
29.  Mr. Lieberman, you may not hear it often, but I want to say "thank you" for being willing to speak the honest truth when so few in the political systems (and elsewhere) are willing to do that on this and related issues. You are willing to be slandered as a racist, as a bigot, or as whatever else they may say, because you believe that people who disdain their citizenship in their current nation (or worse) should be given their wish -- refutation of their citizenship at their own request.

One recent article I read that turned my stomach sour was the recent visit to Israel by Javier Solana, when he kindly spoke of you, Mr. Lieberman, with the following endearing words: "I am here to meet with a man I have disagreed with my entire life...."
I suppose it is your honest stance on these issues that won you such notoriety from this European ambassador. Can I say, Please, perhaps we should begin to APPRECIATE such complements when we receive them! I for one would not want the praise of Mr. Solana, but why should anyone? That is, since when do we free peoples have to win the appreciation of certain groups from old Europe, based on their warped ethical views?

Concerning this issue, in America it is repeatedly proven to be a heated matter concerning what to do with those who burn our American flag. I am of the opinion that America should pay for their one way airline ticket to the destination of their choice, and I say that with no hard feelings (in fact, I think that they would quickly realize how good they HAD it, related at least to the 76% (unfortunate as that is) of the Israeli-Arabs in the poll above that would equate Zionism with racism, but WORSE than that, points # 1 and especially 2 -- Point 2 is hardly short of burning the blue and white).

Nicholas Petersen, Ohio - USA, Mar 13 10:03PM
28.  Author of comment 1 is completely illiterate in history: current "Arab speaking Palestinians have nothing to do with people populating this area 2000 years ago. These people were not christians. Christianity actually did not exist at that time. Wast majority of so called "Arab speaking Palestinians" are descendant of arab migrants attracted to the area by the prosperity and living conditions brought into the area by Jews in the end of 19th - beginning of 20th century. And by the way the term "Palestinians" until 1960s was used exclusively to denote Jews living under Ottoman rule and Britain mandate.
Boris, Boston, Mar 13 10:03PM
27.  The issue should not be one of religious differences in a nation where religious practice is so universally respected.

Israel as a nation, irrespective of religion, has to preserve civic loyalty. Those who wish the dissolution of Israel and who deny it should be thrown out and can live elsewhere, and that includes the Jews. This has nothing to do with popular dissent - but those who contest the legitimacy of Israel and are disloyal to it. Those who are seditious should have their citizenship revoked as well.

All Israeli residents, legal or otherwise should be mandated to take a vow of national allegiance, and with that, service, as a basis for maintaining the rights of residents or citizens. For those unable to serve in the military, there are many options of national service available.

If this were only about history and being true to history, the Temple Mount would have been routed a long time ago and returned to Jewish hands. If this is just a matter of a nation seeking practical solutions, devoid of hatred and racism, to ensure its peaceful survival and internal loyalty, the above is the solution.

Israel is a nation of a demographic Jewish majority. Those who repudiate it can live elsewhere, just as those who came to Israel left elsewhere in order to come to a place in which they felt more personal identification.

Loyal...or leave!

Michael, New York, NY, Mar 13 10:03PM
26.  How do you know this? Maybe the Palestinians were Jewish? This is absolute nonesense. Until about 100 years ago the land was almost empty and uninhabitable. Read Mark Twain, and learn history.
Manny, Chicago, Mar 13 9:03PM
25.  Comment on #1
Dear Apartheid, you should be able to find a decent public library in Boston with some ME history books. Otherwise, you will keep living a fantasy world filled with false and fictitious accounts that you are trying to promulgate on this forum. Jews are the oldest surviving inhabitants of the Holy Land. By the common era, they were the absolute majority, while all other peoples (Philistines, Canaanites, etc) either assimilated or disappeared. Jews were still in the majority by the 5th century under Byzantium, albeit with a significant immigrant Greek population. The years preceding the Arab conquest were very turbulent, Byzantium and Persian empires vying for the land in constant fighting. Jews were massacred and the population depleted. In the 7th century the invading Arab hordes killed, driven away, or converted the remaining Christian Greeks and settled the land. All the evidence from historical records and genetic studies prove that Pals are pure blooded Arabs. As a matter of fact, before 1930s, the term "Palestinian" was applied exclusively to Jews.
By the way, great article. The only reasonable solution is the population exchange circa Cyprus, Turkey/Greece, or Germany.

Bob, Long Island, Mar 13 9:03PM
24.  Since Israel Citizenship was forced upon some Arabs, it is necessary to clear the air. The citizenship of all "forced" non Jews in Israel must be removed. Susequently, thos who want to be citizens, and be fully loyal to the county's ideals must apply individually.
Iche Behr, Los Angeles, USA, Mar 13 9:03PM
23.  Jews have lived inn Israel for 1000s of years. Between the Greeks, Romans & others who have conquered this land & made its occupants disavow Judism & G*D & learn their languages & pray to their false idols religions that is why these arabs are all screwed up. Thank G*D that many Jews did not switch from their beliefs & stayed true to their religion. Israel is the GIFT FROM THE A*MIGHTY G*D (AMEN). Read the TORAH were the truth is written.

Mayer Katz ===, Woodbridge, Va, U.S.A., Mar 13 9:03PM
22.  Also:
Culturally, Palestinians show no significant difference from the Arabs around them. They are capable of assimilating easily within neighboring cultures. If only the neighboring states would stop using them as a tool to destroy Israel and exhibit a small fraction of the concern that the West has done.

It is the Arab nations that practice TRUE apartheid: No Jews Admitted. A Palestinian state, according to the Arabs, must be Judenrein, without Jews. All Israeli-Palestinian treaties envision a Palestinian state without any Jews; yet the Jewish state has voting Arab citizens--and Arabs who serve in parliament. Which state is more "racist"?

Lia, USA, Mar 13 9:03PM
21.  Apartheid is ignorant of the region's history. First, the Jews were never wholly driven out from the Land of Israel. Jews lived in what Romans called "Palestina" during the Byzantine era through the present.
2. The people residing in Israel before, during and after the first and second temple periods were Israelites/Jews, not Palestinians. The concept of "Palestinian" is wholly modern.
3. Many so-called Palestinian refugees from '48 were not, in fact, born in the area, but immigrated to the region because of the jobs and increased prosperity the Jews brought. It is a UN double standard that counts anyone who was in Mandatory Palestine for a mere two years, as of 1948, as a Palestinian refugee.

Lia, USA, Mar 13 9:03PM
20.  Exactly. The "Palestinians" want their own nation. They have it. It is called "Jordan"...or since they consider themselves part of the Arab Nation, they can go to any one of the other twenty or so Arab nations. Israeli's also deserve autonomy...in Israel without having the growing masses of "Palestinians" aka Jordanians there also
Paul, USA/ Atlanta, Mar 13 9:03PM
19.  The Arabs who now call themselves Palestinians mostly immigrated to Israel after the Ottoman Empire was defeated in WWI, and Jews started building an infrastructure in the land during the British mandate, so the economy welcomed foreign labor. Back then, the Arabs identified themselves as as Syrian and Egyptian nationals, not as "Palestinian". (See, http://www.meforum.org/article/522.)

#1 Apartheid's Opinion has No Basis in Fact, Reality, Mar 13 9:03PM
18.  Until such time that Jews are safely allowed to live in "Jewish" towns (a.k.a. settlements) across the State of Palestine, there should be not one Arab allowed to live in "Arab" towns across the State of Israel.
Raanan Melech, Jerusalem, Israel, Mar 13 9:03PM
17.  Israel should treat this minority no better and no worse than any other western democracy would treat such a minority that harbored the same goals.
Bruce, New York, Mar 13 9:03PM
16.  This is the std Arab arguement. The only problem is there is no historical or archeological evidence to support it. On the contrary, by the Arab conquest the population was still predominately Jewish. Local Jews & Christians didn't simply convert to Islam. As elsewhere, some emigrated, some accepted dhimmi status, some were absorbed into the GREATER ARAB POPULATION. Not only do contemporary Christian writers refer to them as Arabs, Arab chroniclers refer to them as Arabs. This is but another attempt to rewrite history to suit the Arab agenda.
Bob Kowlowitz, Washington, DC, Mar 13 9:03PM
15.  Muslims who reside in non-Muslim countries have a responsibility to live their lives according to the laws of their homeland, and they have a responsibility to Sharia also. If the laws of the adopted homeland come into conflict with their Islamic principles, then they have a right to petition for a redress of grievances, if such rights are guaranteed by law. They may also leave of their own free will, but they can never be righteously or legally forced to leave. Rights and laws must be applied equally to all citizens of the nation, or else no justice exists. Why give succor to the most heinous critics of Israel with your blog? You seem drunk with power, and locked in the grip of overmastering fear besides. Would you have one set of laws for Jews and one set for non-Jews? Would you curtail the democratic freedom of Jews out of fear of non-Jews? Tell us, O Minister, have you ever heard of any other nation who denied groups of its citizens equal protection under the law on the basis of race, religion, cultural heritage and the like? Name these nations for us, and then say whether you want Israel to emulate these nations.
Githendil, USA, Mar 13 8:03PM
14.  The final settlement for the PA state should in my opinion include land as well as population resolution. I think it is not realistic is to uproot Israeli arabs from the land that was inhibited by them for the past 100 years (and 2000 as they claim). Therefore, the final settlement needs to include territorial swap, which will come with a little extra - Israeli Arabs. This will achieve 2 things. first, PALs will get territorial continuity, and second Israeli Arabs will finaly be a part of their own people. Isn't it their dream? They have to be stripped out of Israeli citizenship and granted PAL citizenship.
I think it would be a fair solution for both peoples.

Stan Sidorovsky, Philadelphia, PA, Mar 13 8:03PM
13.  sorry apartheid, your claim is completley illegitimate. Are they philestinies or canaanites, or what? what we call palestinian is of various nations, but clearly you, as is evidenced from many of your previous posts, are not concerned with actual facts, but with your own set of concocted ideas and distortions which you pass off as other than merely your ideas. Clearly in your view, jews were invaders and occupiers over 3000 years ago, all through the kingdom of david and on and on, until now. that is a long time to be an occupier. Your contributions to this site are valued reminders for all of us less we get to complascent. Mr. Lieberman, I am what any except the most tyranical and oppresive members of the left wing, or their sympathisers and apologists, would call a liberal, and yet i am not blind to the reality that you, myself and many others see. It is clear that years down the road when people look in retrospect they will see that you had the vision to see through the propaganda of cowards and the terrified, through the empty phrases of the apologists, and the pied piper tune of the mislead idealogs. You are a man who stands against those who would undermine and destroy the jewish state, their sole refuge, and home of the jewish nation. you see what they are doing, and do not close your ears or mind to what they are saying, and i recognize this. I hope that this continues and that you remain the steadfast clear thinking personification of what the non capitulating, non groveling, non self immolating and principally self respecting Jew should be. Thank you
mica, amherst, Mar 13 8:03PM
12.  Yes, I do agree. Any two state solution (which in principle I welcome) must have defensible borders for Israel (given the long history of hatred) and a defensible interior i.e. no enemies within. Off course this will be characterised as Apartheid but having just watched the television program on the partition of India which caused horrendous violence between the different ethnic communities, I think such a stance makes good sense. Not that I think it will ever be accepted.
leo Scheiner, London, Mar 13 8:03PM
11.  Hey Apartheid, are you from South Africa now living in Boston? I doubt it so your monicer shows your ignorance. Palestine, named after the Jews arch enemies the Philistines, was a waste land in ruined as late as the 1800s - refer to Mark Twain's historic visit. The Palestine Press was a Jewish newspaper, the Palestine Brigade in WWII was a Jewish brigade, the Palestine Philharmonic was a Jewish orchestra. Shall I go on?? Jordan is 3/4 "Palestinian". Why aren't these people living in Jordan? Why are they treated like dirt by the rest of the Arab world? Why wasn't a Palestinian state created in 1948 along side Israel? Why wasn't a Palestinian state created from 1948 - 1967 when there was absolutely no Israeli presence in the West Bank? Why were 600,000 Jews thrown out of Arab countries in 1948 resettled and the 600,000 Arabs living in Palestine not resettled by their Arab brethern. People of the Land? You are a joke.
mike, usa, Mar 13 8:03PM
10.  The writer in Boston obviously has not read much about the area because if he had he would know that the Jewish people were not totally expunged from the land but in fact continued to live in many parts of the land including the west bank. Furthermore, the increase in the numbers of Arabic speaking people occurred as a direct result of the economic opportunities brought about by the native Jewish population as well as the immigration that came from Europe and America in the early part of the 20th century. He or she ought to look at the increase in life expectancy that the Jewish medical institutions brought about. Ask him or her what major medical institutions were founded during the past 100 years by the Arabic speaking peoples. Why is it that the "leaders" come to America for treatment as well as going to Israeli hospitals and not their own? Aparatheid-lets not be ridiculous.
Contrary, Baltimore, Maryland, Mar 13 8:03PM
9.  The Fifth column of Arabs in Israel is getting a boost from the current Israeli government. Arabs are getting the idea that they can get away with anything and so far they are. Start stripping the Israel citizenship that they deplore and send them to the land of their dream -- Saudia. They need the shoe-shiners there. Let them finally earn their bread. They may even enlist and serve in the military. They sound very brave under the protection of Israeli Freedoms.
Rafail , USA, IL, Mar 13 7:03PM
8.  'The are descendants of the people who lived in the region before' What kind of abstract definition is that? Who are those people? Are the Jews?
Palestinian are the Arabs that came mostly to Palestine from Jordan in 18-19 century.

Peter, Northen pole, Mar 13 7:03PM
7.  Apartheid from Boston, you have just given us a classic example of what Arabs have been telling the world for so long - complete and utter fabrications and distortions of the truth! I don't know why Israel should even bother sitting at a table talking about peace.
Daniel Barnett, Brighton, Mar 13 7:03PM
6.   No democracy can tolerate participation by those who wish to destroy it. This does not mean that there needs to be a witch hunt for presumptive traitors, but it there should be some framework for determination of minimum loyalty requirements. That why, for example, new American citizens are asked to take an oath of loyalty.
The question of loyalty is much more crucial for Israel, a small country surrounded by those who largely reject Jewish self-rule. I think Avigdor Lieberman is only calling for the sort of minimal standard of perticipation that any sane democratic representative would anywhere.
The fact that he is considered "right wing" or "racist" by so many Jews is a sad commentary on the psychological state of Jews today.

David katcoff@us.ibm.com, Jericho, Vt, Mar 13 7:03PM
5.  The only "people of the land" are the Jews. There has never been a Palestinian people or country. It's all sham created by the Plo. Israel was re-named Palestine by the Romans and has no Arab connection. Jews were the first to be called Palestinians.
The Arab immigrants only started calling themselves Palestinians several decades ago.
The commentator above is rehashing Arab propaganda. The phony Palestinians are Arabs. They are not descendants of the Philostines, a Greek people. Arabs are fom Arabia not Israel. The Jewish people are the indigenous people Israel.

Daisy, USA, Mar 13 7:03PM
4.  Mr. Lieberman is absolutely on point. He follows Rav Kahane's basic logic of the definition of a true Jewish state. One that does not play favorites to our enemies, infact one that realizes that a Jewish state will only survive amongt the hostile surrounding nations and populations within its borders if it goes back to the self determination Zionistic mentality which once encapsulated Medinat Yisrael. I for one think that it would be nice see some more strength and determination from our own government like Avigdor Lieberman, this is the onky saftey we have in the face of what already exists inside and outside the green line. Bezrat Hashem, Israel will see new leadership soon.
Rav Melech Leib Rosen, Teaneck NJ, Mar 13 7:03PM
3.  I think Lieberman is right. He knows what Israel needs to do, if she wishes to continue as a Jewish state. But most people are too busy vehemently criticizing him - either because they can't decide whether or not they really WANT a Jewish state anymore, or because they do but have no faith that it could be done.

Israelis need to decide, for themselves, whether or not they truly stand for their Jewish nation, and if they do, how to keep it this way for the ages. No more obscure quibbling... we need clear, strategic thinking.

Unfortunately, I don't think Israelis, as a whole, are prepared to take this step. I hope to God that I'm wrong, but to me it looks as though Israelis are waiting for a massacre before they'll be ready to be decisive....

Yiftakh, Chicago, USA, Mar 13 7:03PM
2.  "Palestinian" = a collective over time from all arab countries. there is NO history of these people and will never be any history . they are striving to take what is not theirs nor never will be. The state of Israel has always been Israel even under other ruling countries it is fact so I think it is about time people of the earth start to learn the truth of what is and not what is not. " palestinians " are a product of the arab world not of history .
jeff, Canada, Mar 13 5:03PM
1.  While they call themselves Palestinain-Arabs, probably to express solidarity with their neighbors, the expression Arabic speaking Palestinians would be more correct. They are the descendants of the peoples who lived in the region before, during and after the first and second temple periods. When the Jews were driven out they were mostly Christian. After the Arab conquest they gradually converted to Islam and adopted Arab language and culture. They are not just generic "Arabs" who can be sent off to live with other Arabs. They are the people of the land.
Apartheid, Boston, Mar 13 3:03PM



Thursday, July 26, 2007

The "Friends" and the "Enemies" of Israel Beytenu ח"כים מאופוזיציה מטרפדים רפורמה בשטית הממשל


הקדמה :

 

תראו בבקשה, גולשים נכבדים, איך ח"כים של הליכוד ושל האיחוד הלאומי עשו יד אחת עם העבודה + מר"צ + אגודה ( 2 האחרונות יחליפו בקלות את ישראל ביתנו בקואליציה ובכסף אולמרט לא יחסוך - ראה את 5% תוספת לשכר במגזר הציבורי ) - כל המפלגות הללו הכשילו ( בינתיים ) את הרפורמה בשלטון שהיא אחד משלושת ה"פילים" איתם הלכה ישראל ביתנו לבוחר.

 

להזכיר - שלושת הפילים הללו הם:1. הבעיה הדמוגרפית 2. מלחמה בפשע 3. שינוי שיטת המשטר בישראל

 

והנה בא הליכוד בדמותו של ח"כ סער ופוגע אישית בח"כ טרטמן (ראה שוב את הפרוטוקול )ולהזכיר למבקרי ישראל ביתנו, לח"כ סער ואחרים : בהצבעה על חוק להארכת חופשת הלידה של ח"כ סער + ח"כ יחימוביץ' ישראל ביתנו לא הצביעה נגד מתוך איזה פרינציפ ! לא לחינם צבעתי את קטעי הפרוטוקול

 

=====================================================================

 

 

בקשות חברי הכנסת להקדמת הדיון בהצעות חוק לפני הקריאה הטרומית:  
א. הצעת חוק יסוד:   הממשלה (הפרדת רשויות ומשטר נשיאותי) (פ/2806/17),

הצעת חבר הכנסת דוד רותם

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
הנושא הבא על סדר-היום:   בקשות חברי הכנסת להקדמת הדיון בהצעות חוק לפני הקריאה הטרומית:   הצעת חוק יסוד:   הממשלה (הפרדת רשויות ומשטר נשיאותי) (פ/2806/17), הצעת חבר הכנסת דוד רותם.

דוד רותם:  
מחר תעלה לדיון הצעת חוק של חברת הכנסת טרטמן בנושא הזה בדיוק. התברר שבהצעת החוק נפלו כמה פגמים טכניים.

גדעון סער:  
מהותיים, לא טכניים.

דוד רותם:  
טכניים לחלוטין. באתי בהצעת החוק שלי כדי לתקן אותם, כדי שהחוק הזה יהיה מושלם. אני יודע שיש פה הרבה חברים שמתנגדים לחוק. הצעת החוק היתה של השר ליברמן ועברה לחברת הכנסת טרטמן. השאלה היא למה שהכנסת תדון פעמיים באותה הצעת חוק. זה ההיגיון שבדבר, זו הדחיפות שבדבר.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
חבר הכנסת גדעון סער, בבקשה.

גדעון סער:  
אדוני היושב-ראש, אני מודה שאומנם גם אני פתוח ללמוד, אבל פעם ראשונה שזכור לי, שכנימוק לבקשה לפטור מחובת הנחה נאמר שיש פגמים טכניים בהצעה אחרת. נדמה לי שגם אם יחטטו בפרוטוקולים של ועדת הכנסת לדורותיה, לא ימצאו נימוק כל כך מקורי.
נניח שיש להזיה של ישראל ביתנו על משטר נשיאותי רוב בכנסת, מה שלפי דעתי אין, ונניח שיהיה רוב להצעה של חברת הכנסת טרטמן מחר במליאה, אז אם יש בה כמה פגמים טכניים, יתקנו את זה בוועדת החוקה, חוק ומשפט, לקראת הקריאה הראשונה. אני מכיר עוד כמה הצעות חוק שהן מוגשות לקריאה טרומית והן עדיין לא מושלמות, ותוך כדי הליכי החקיקה הן הופכות למושלמות.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
כמה פעמים אישרנו פה פטורים לחברי כנסת של הצעות חוק בלי פגמים, אלא בגלל שיש הצעה זהה?

גדעון סער:  
קמנו ביום ראשון בבוקר, קראנו באחד מהעיתונים והבנו שיש דחיפות עליונה להעביר השבוע את ההצעה למשטר נשיאותי, לפני שיוצאים לפגרה. פשוט דבר שאי-אפשר בלעדיו. ההצעה הזאת היתה אמורה להיות מוצבעת בתחילת מושב החורף. פתאום מישהו החליט שהיא חייבת לעבור בקריאה טרומית השבוע. יש גבול. אני מציע לך לבדוק מה היה בוועדה הזאת בקדנציה הזאת כאשר הביאו הצעות אחרות ודומות בנושאים ממשליים, בנושא של חוקי יסוד. גם בהצעות שתמכתי בהן, התנגדתי לפטור מחובת הנחה לחוקים בנושא של חוקי יסוד. משנים שיטת ממשל ונותנים לזה פטור מחובת הנחה. אם הצעת החוק תעבור במליאה, ואני מקווה שהיא לא תעבור, וזה לגיטימי שחברת הכנסת טרטמן ומי שתומך בעמדה הזאת יעשה את המרב כדי שהיא תעבור, אז היא תעבור, יעשו על זה מודיפיקציות. אגב, הנושא משטר נשיאותי לא מוזכר בהצעת החוק של טרטמן, שם מדובר על שני פתקים.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
הכותרת לא מתאימה לתוכן, אני מסכים אתך.

גדעון סער:  
אני לא מבקר, זו הצעה לגיטימית, לדעתי מוטעית. לבוא עם הצעה נפרדת כדי לתקן פגמים טכניים בהצעה המקורית, לדעתי זה דבר שאסור לתת לו יד. אנחנו פה צריכים להעביר מסר שלא יהיה משטר נשיאותי במדינת ישראל, כי הוא לא יהיה.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
בהצעת החוק של חבר הכנסת דוד רותם יש סעיף שמבטל את חוק יסוד:   הנשיא.
חברת הכנסת טרטמן, בבקשה.

אסתרינה טרטמן:  
אדוני היושב-ראש, אני מבינה את רחשי לבותיהם של אי-אלו מהיושבים סביב השולחן הזה, או לפחות אחד שבולט במיוחד, שכאשר לא הוא במרכז הבמה אז יש פה בעיה אישית ואז תוקפים מכל הכיוונים. אבל אני רוצה להזכיר גם לאדוני היושב-ראש, שהוא היה חבר בשולחן העגול שבו השתתפו 10 סיעות מתוך 12 סיעות הבית. כל המטרה של השולחן העגול היתה על בסיס אותה הצעת חוק שישראל ביתנו הגישה. אני מודה שלא אני הייתי זו שניסחה את ההצעה. היא הוגשה בזמנו וגם הצגנו אותה סביב השולחן העגול כנושא שמעלים אותו לסדר-היום מבלי להיכנס לפרטים במהות של הצעת החוק, כי היה ברור שהנושא הזה יעבור תהליך פרטני, מדויק, נקודתי לניסוח החוק.
אדוני היושב-ראש, הצעת החוק שהועברה לידיי הונחה, השלימה את ימיה ועולה לסדר-היום כחוק וכדין בבית הזה ביום רביעי הקרוב. נכנסו כמה תיקונים ברוח הדברים שהוסכמו על רוב סיעות הבית, כולל סיעתו של חבר הכנסת סער וחלק מאנשיו. יש פה ביטוי לתיקון.

גדעון סער:  
איזה שטויות.

אסתרינה טרטמן:  
אני מבקשת להתנסח כראוי, כפי שחוקי הבית מחייבים.

גדעון סער:  
את מדברת שטויות, מה לעשות. לא היה דבר כזה. היא ממציאה, ולדעתי זו לא הפעם הראשונה שהיא ממציאה.

אסתרינה טרטמן:  
גם נציגי הליכוד ישבו סביב השולחן העגול, בניגוד לדעתו האישית של חבר הכנסת סער.

גדעון סער:  
ניפגש במליאה מחר.

אסתרינה טרטמן:  
כל הבקשה שלנו כאן היא לא לדון פעמיים באותה הצעה.

יולי-יואל אדלשטיין:  
אם לא נצביע, לא נגיע ל-60 שנה למדינת ישראל עם משטר נשיאותי. זו דחיפות.



היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
אנחנו עוברים להצבעה.

רוברט אילטוב:  
אני רוצה הצבעה שמית.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
מי בעד בקשתו לפטור מחובת הנחה של חבר הכנסת דוד רותם? עבדכם הנאמן יעקב מרגי בעד. דוד טל.

דוד טל:  בעד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
מגלי והבה.

מגלי והבה:  בעד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
יואל חסון, אינו נמצא. מחליף אותו מיכאל נודלמן.

מיכאל נודלמן:  בעד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
שי חרמש.

שי חרמש:  בעד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
שלי יחימוביץ.

שלי יחימוביץ:   נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
קולט אביטל.

קולט אביטל:   נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
יורם מרציאנו, אינו נוכח. מחליף אותו אופיר פינס.

אופיר פינס-פז:   נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
נאדיה חילו.

נאדיה חילו:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
דוד אזולאי.

דוד אזולאי:  בעד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
נסים זאב.

נסים זאב:  בעד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
משה שרוני.

משה שרוני:  נמנע.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
יצחק גלנטי.

אלחנן גלזר:  
אני מחליף אותו, נמנע.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
מאיר פרוש.

מאיר פרוש:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
גדעון סער.

גדעון סער:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
ראובן ריבלין.

ראובן ריבלין:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
יולי אדלשטיין.

יולי-יואל אדלשטיין:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
אסתרינה טרטמן.

אסתרינה טרטמן:  בעד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
רוברט אילטוב.

רוברט אילטוב:  בעד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
אורי אריאל.

אורי אריאל:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
אליהו גבאי.

אליהו גבאי:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
זהבה גלאון.

זהבה גלאון:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
אחמד טיבי.

אחמד טיבי:  נגד.

היו"ר יעקב מרגי:  
מוחמד ברכה, אינו נוכח.



12 הצביעו נגד,  9 הצביעו בעד, שני נמנעים. אי לכך בקשת הפטור לא אושרה.

כתובות אינטרנט נלוות:  
http://knesset.gov.il/protocols/data/html/knesset/2007-07-17.html